Переписка о Ливии

Переписка эта состоялась не по моей инициативе, а как продолжение ответа на мои публичные вопросы о Ливии в разделе "Криминальное право" социально-деловой сети LinkedIn:

- Кто подал правовую жалобу против Каддафи и в какой международный суд?

- Кто был публичным прокурором?

- Кто был защитником?

- Каково было решение суда?



Можно конечно сетовать, что Резолюция Совбеза ООН не выполняется, тогда как оппоненты утверждают обратное. Однако такие резолюции "выстреливают" из-за разного рода неопределенностей - в данном случае из-за неопределенности источника информации, на основании которых они принимаются.

Вы думаете профессионалы из ООН глупы и не видели пассаж о невесть откуда появившейся "ситуации в Ливийской Арабской Джамахерии" (?):

"Resolution 1970 (2011)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 6491st meeting, on
26 February 2011
The Security Council,
Expressing grave concern at the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and condemning the violence and use of force against civilians".

Все это наводит на мысль о нефти и правах человека как о последних в списке причин происходящего в Арабском мире.

Первая причина - эта глобальная власть, включая переход на другие способы резервирования валют, выборы в США и не только там.

Вторая причина - это разгром оси "Латинская Америка - Соединенные Штаты Африки - Россия - Азия", как угроза этой глобальной власти. Россия в эту ось включена на всякий случай.

Забегая вперед содержания переписки, отмечу, что возврат глобального политического маятника к консервативному либерализму (визит Маккейна в Бенгази) наталкивается на либеральный консерватизм (Обама), что черевато их взаимным обнулением в ситуации отсутствия выбора даже для самого неискушенного электората. Может оказаться, что маятника и нет вовсе, а есть около 2 млрд. виртуальных подданных виртуальной Британской Империи. Это Вам не США с населением далеко менее половины миллиарда.

А вот мой вопрос трехлетней давности - будут ли британцы распространять старые русские идеи в Африке и по всему миру? - получит ответ наверное скоро.

Итак переписка:

"от Lis
кому "Nikolay Kryachkov LION TopLinked nkryachkov at gmail.com"
дата 29 марта 2011 г. 22:37
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Nikolay,

Ah, sorry. I made the mistake of thinking you wanted a substantive answer (the legal authority in this case is the Security Council, not the World Court), rather than meek acceptance of your framing of the issue to support your pre-determined conclusion.

Lis

от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 30 марта 2011 г. 10:46
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Lis,

no problem.

I think you're talking about a pre-determined legal system in which security service (not court) makes verdict who is guilty and who is not. Sorry, I do not know which country has that legal system which is copied in the UN. But even if so, my first question was "Who made a legal complaint against Gaddafi and in what international court? '" and we can substitute "court" and read "security service/council'.

What is the answer in this case?

I started from that question because of unknown source of info about "the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya":

"S/RES/1970 (2011)" http://www.un.org/ru/documents/ods.asp?m=S/RES/1970%282011%29

"Resolution 1970 (2011)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 6491st meeting, on
26 February 2011
The Security Council,
Expressing grave concern at the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and
condemning the violence and use of force against civilians"

So, it is not about propaganda, Lis. It's about quality and honesty of content.

Nikolay

от Lis
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дата 30 марта 2011 г. 17:12
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Nikolay,

You're overlooking an extremely important point.

When the police see a crime in progress, they don't start by going to court, making a complaint, waiting through a trial to get a conviction before they arrest the perpetrator. If they see a crime in progress, they act immediately to stop the crime and arrest the perpetrator--and complaint, trial, and conviction or acquittal are what follow after that.

Gaddafi was actually bombing his own people and sending armed forces against them. That's a crime in progress. The world has a process, imperfect and not always reliable, but a process, for deciding whether, when, and how to act when we see such a crime in progress. That process goes through the UN Security Council, which in this case has acted by authorizing a No Fly zone and action to protect civilians.

Part of the hit on George W. Bush for invading Iraq was that although Secy. of State Powell presented "evidence" (some of which was, although Powell didn't know it, faked) to the General Assembly, Bush never sought or received authorization from the Security Council.

The people of Libya don't have to wait until after Gaddafi is charged, tried, and convicted to get some help, anymore than someone who is assaulted in front of a police officer has to wait for relief until after the assailant is tried and convicted.

Best,

Lis

от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 30 марта 2011 г. 21:26
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Very dangerous and wrong police analogy without legally verified info, Lis. The US Army and NATO are not the police. If this so-called police will come my Russian home, I shall fire at them because my grandfather did that when Hitler came Russia with his slogan to liberate the Russians in 1941 and my ancestors did when Napoleon came Russia in 1812 with the slogan to liberate the Russians. After that those Russians liberated Paris in 1814 and Berlin in 1945.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Column

http://www.google.ru/imglanding?q=%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9+%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BF&hl=ru&newwindow=1&sa=X&tbm=isch&prmd=ivns&tbnid=zRx5oQ0OkCEokM:&imgrefurl=http://vimi.weiqi.ru/keywords/foto-vi-mi&imgurl=http://vimi.weiqi.ru/files/DvorGoban.jpg/normal&ei=l2WTTdapL4WWOvDruVo&zoom=1&w=700&h=525&iact=hc&oei=UGWTTbuLPMXLtAal69nRBg&page=1&tbnh=107&tbnw=165&start=0&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:19,s:0&biw=1057&bih=531

Billy Joel - Leningrad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgD_-dRZPgs

Nikolay
St Petersburg


от Lis
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дата 30 марта 2011 г. 21:44
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So, we should have just stood aside and watched while yet another brutal dictator slaughter his people?

Hitler was invading in a war of conquest, as was Napoleon. A better analogy would be the European alliance against Napoleon, or the Allied Powers against Hitler. Standing aside and tsk-tsking didn't stop either Hitler or Napoleon; it took military action to do it.

So unless you're saying it was an outrage for other countries including Russia to act to oppose Napoleon or Hitler because there hadn't been a court proceeding against them first, your argument seems a bit confused.

I've got to say you're an original, though. Not many people are willing to take Gaddafi's side!

Lis


от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 30 марта 2011 г. 22:19
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You are dreaming that I took side, but Guddafi did not attack the US and NATO members. I asked the concrete legal question nobody answered.

40 years they stood aside and now get wise?

They also stood aside when Napoleon fired Moscow and Hitler blocked Leningrad and fired Stalingrad to see which side to take. Also they funded nazis

WALL STREET AND
THE RISE OF HITLER



By
Antony C. Sutton
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/

International court in 1812 and in 1939? You're original, I am ok. :)

Nikolay


от Lis
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дата 30 марта 2011 г. 22:36
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Nikolay,

Who is "they"?

The UN didn't exist in 1814, or in 1939, or in 1941. It was formed after WWII.

Nevertheless, the aggression of Napoleon and then the aggression of Hitler, caused international alliances to form--and after the Second World War they made the second, and so far more successful, effort at creating a permanent international organization to attempt to create more order and less war in international affairs.

The difference in Libya between now and any earlier period is that there is NOW a very active homegrown opposition to his rule--and also the awkward little fact of the bombs he's dropping on his own people. I don't quite know how to break this to you, but that sort of thing really is considered very poor behavior.

The international system isn't perfect; our international institutions are for the most part still in their infancy, and no one is willing yet to give them their OWN enforcement powers. And even when everyone agrees that some situation or other is very wrong, it's not always practical to act. Central Africa, for instance, is just a lot less accessible to US or European military power. Also, the Arab League is supporting the action in Libya. Without that support, this would be a much dicier situation.

But none of that is a reason not to act when we CAN act.

Lis

от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 30 марта 2011 г. 23:22
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"They" are those who did things I mentioned.

The UN document I mentioned does not disclose the source of info about so-called situation in Libya. It is information violence. The UN is not church or any other religious organisation. So, I have right for doubts. If you was in Libya all these 40 years and reported to UN, please tell me about your status there.

Never give infants the gun because infants will blow their brains out.

During known invasion in Iraq 100 000 human beings was killed. And what? Citizens of Iraq do not want see anglo-americans (not only soldiers) in result. If it is normal for you. Ok.

Regarding "when we CAN act"... you know, there is no reason to speak about information sources, Law etc. Just when you CAN act. This can form a mirror of when others CAN act. And you want to make the world better or simply to survive?

Not all social problems are solved in the US, UK, France. You CAN'T?

You decide how to act and have ALL responsibility. But I doubt about legitimacy of infant decisions .... I suppose some mentor is behind the infants you mentioned ...


Nikolay

от Lis
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дата 31 марта 2011 г. 2:08
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Ah, the all-purpose "they,"

Unless you have been living in a cave with no access to tv, internet, newspapers, or radio, you ought to have noticed that BBC, Al Jazeera, CNN, ABC, NBC, other networks in Europe and the Arab world, as well as many newspapers, have all been covering the Libyan situation in particular, as well as the increasing democrat unrest in the Arab world generally, quite heavily. Heck, even Fox News has been covering it, somewhat. There's not a lack of information.

I'm not sure what has given you the impression I agree with the US invasion of Iraq. That didn't happen because the Iraqis were trying to remove their brutal dictator and wanted help, and it didn't happen because Iraq was a direct, immediate threat to the US or any of our allies. I'd be mightily pleased to see some country manage to arrest George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and charge them as the war criminals they are. They destabilized the Middle East and damaged American interests everywhere, but especially in the rest of the Arab world.

Responsible people consider both whether a situation is such that it justifies action, AND whether they have the means to act effectively. You apparently see no reason why any other country should object to Gaddafi bombing his own people. Most people disagree, and believe that action to stop that is justified if we can do it effectively. We also have the means to act, including support from other Arab League states.

Meanwhile the situation in Somalia is also fairly horrible, and most people, maybe not you but most civilized people, would like to see that improved--but that's not an area where the parts of the world who have the resources to act, have the access and ability to act effectively. Both legally and logistically, it's too far outside NATO's region; the Arab League is closer but doesn't have the force projection capabilities, etc.

There's a prayer I learned from my father, and I have a little medallion he gave me with the prayer on it: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

The fact that there's someone in trouble whom you can't save, or whom you failed to save, doesn't justify sitting on your hands when you CAN help.

And yes, there are still lots of social problems in the US, UK, and France. And even, so I hear, in Russia. We aren't bombing our own populations, though, or sending army units against them. And imperfect though we are, we do still have some ability to at least give the Libyan people a better chance against the brutal dictator who's currently trying to kill them.

Best,

Lis

от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 31 марта 2011 г. 9:56
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The UN document does not mention all these Mass Media. I asked you about the UN's content, not your own impression but you are trying to offend me "maybe not you but most civilized people". I speak your language, Lis, and you don't speak my language. I can distinguish what is written and what is not and as I can see you have problems with it. Therefore I do not think you can decide who is civilized. It is not your business.

Regarding what is going on in Russia - you know, I think Gorby is a criminal but a court should consider it. This caused many things. To see homeless was problematic in Russia 25 years ago. You know, some time ago I recollected a history of my family and only Nikolay II (with all his shortages)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_II_of_Russia

gave my great-grandfather something because my great-grandfather saved his life.

http://knowledgeperson.blogspot.com/2010/02/ii.html

Communists and so-called democrats take away and democrats are worst than communists was in the SU. Marxist socialists/communists which ideological home is London started destroy my country 150 years ago. Also there are more deep roots of what is going on in Russia. We know that.

But believe me - to see international police in Russia or their bombing is worst thing including for that international police.

Nikolay

от Lis
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дата 31 марта 2011 г. 10:36
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You don't know what languages I do or don't speak; you're playing the odds, based on the fact that most native English speakers don't learn other languages--just as native speakers of French didn't, when French was the dominant international language. Or Latin or Greek, in their day, for that matter. Next up is probably Mandarin, of course.

It really doesn't matter whether you personally find that all the legal i's have been dotted and t's have been crossed to your personal satisfaction, with regard to Libya. The standard that had to be met was that a majority of the Security Council agreed, and no member with a veto disagreed strongly enough to veto rather than abstain. That standard was met--and given the diverse and competing interests on the Security Council, that's a pretty tough standard to meet.

And it isn't just the news media, of course, that they had for information sources. The Libyan diplomatic delegation to the UN defected a few weeks ago and began calling for intervention.

The UN Security Council is not required to set out in detail the basis for its actions in a format that pleases you. You can, however, if you choose, follow the debates as well as the votes.

No one has proposed sending any foreign forces into Russia. Lots of reasons for that, of course, including the fact that Russia has nukes, but also, non-trivially, as rough as things are in Russia, with you having gone more or less directly from communist totalitarianism to the worst of robber baron capitalism, the kinds of things that cause the international community to even think about intervention aren't going on in Russia.

I continue to be mystified by your apparent belief that bombing or not bombing the citizens of Libya is Gaddafi's private affair and no one else has any right to object to it.

Best,

Lis

от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 31 марта 2011 г. 21:35
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Lis, I am a private person.

In Russia we have capitalism many legal rules of which was written by american experts in 1990s. These experts was in Russia because was invited by those from the communist party of the SU and KGB who sold the SU for personal benefits.

That is why I think that libyan rebels are the traitors of their mother land because they accepted the international support. "Normally" was to fight against Gaddafi by own means or escape in London or Washington, or Paris ....

Any country has own interests. Therefore any international support of the rebels is being made for the interests (does not matter good or bad) of the supporters. Mass Media you mentioned are from the supporting countries. It is very simple business, nothing more. An excuse can be various - human rights, camel rights etc....

The details are more interesting, but who knows them ... :)

Nikolay

от Lis
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дата 31 марта 2011 г. 23:08
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Nikolay,

Where did I suggest that you are not a private person? So am I.

Yes, in the 1990s Russia's economic laws got rewritten by American hard-right free market absolutists. And what they gave you was robber baron capitalism. They've worked very hard to restore robber baron capitalism here, too, though there's more entrenched resistance and pushback here. Many Americans who were watching what was happening in Russia during those years were saddened and angered by the lost opportunity for Russia, but it wasn't our choice to make.

As for the Libyan rebels being "traitors" because they accept outside help--sorry, no. That presumes that they owe some loyalty to Gaddafi, who is not a lawfully and legitimately elected leader, but just another military thug who carried out a successful coup forty years ago and has been systematically destroying the institutions that could have opposed him ever since.

The Libyan people have the right to act, to take back their country--and they have the right to form alliances. They have no obligation to just stand there and be gunned down.

Best,

Lis

от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 1 апреля 2011 г. 9:53
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I disagree, Lis,

in Feb. 1917 some people in the Russian establishment who wanted more power under cover of democracy started violence - a revolution. In Oct. 1917 some Russian officers from the Russian Imperial military intelligence supported bolsheviks to take away power from those "democrats". It was done with violence. "Democrats" was supported by the West. Partly because of that support tens of millions Russians was killed!

I think what you are saying is about fueling the fire. How many people was killed by the western bombing and snipers?

SNIPERS IN CAIRO MAKE HISTORY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVcYZCa27EY

от Lis
кому Nikolay Kryachkov
дата 1 апреля 2011 г. 15:41
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Okay, I think I see where we are, now.

Nikolay, I'm a librarian. The very first thing I ask about any "evidence" someone presents to me is "what's the source?"

The source of your video is a writer who is deep into conspiracy theories and believes that the US and UK have an interest in destabilizing the region that the largest part of the world's oil comes from. Which is, frankly, insane. The besetting sin of US and UK politics for several decades now has been being too willing to support brutal dictators in the Middle East because it was easy to make deals with them and ensure our oil supply.

The "evidence" Starikov offers that that the US and the UK put snipers in Cairo to promote violence and opposition to the government is that, woohoo, brutal dictatorial regimes never do anything stupid. One of the leaders of the Libyan uprising is obviously a CIA agent because he lived in Virginia within a few miles of CIA headquarters for years. Sorry, Nikolay, but that describes literally millions of people, and there are, as startling as Mr. Starikov would undoubtedly find the information, many other employers in the area.

Sorry, but I'm not persuaded by, or really much interested in, the ravings of a rightwing, anti-democracy conspiracy theorist who would not recognize real evidence if it bit him on the nose. You'll have to do better than Mr. Starikov if you want to persuade me that there's something wrong with the Libyans overthrowing a thug.

Best,

Lis

от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 1 апреля 2011 г. 23:47
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Bravo!

So, Lis, we both agree that we should be careful what we read and watch and claim verification. My original questions was about verification, as you remember.

The only thing we should agree that there are no western economic interests in Libya (more broad in Arabic World and Africa) and therefore CIA, Mi6, etc. are inactive there, western governments spend tax payers' money for military operations there without any hope to get some assets in exchange of that "investments" (millions and millions of USD, GBP, and EUR are being spent for happiness of some bedouins), isn't it? :) How can you prove it?

Nikolay

от Lis
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дата 2 апреля 2011 г. 2:21
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Huh?

Who said western governments have no economic interests in Libya or the Arab world generally? Certainly not me!

Those economic interests plus a fear of democracy practiced by people who aren't "just like us" have distorted and complicated our policy and diplomacy there for decades. None of which changes the fact that the Libyan people, and the Egyptian people, and all the other Arab peoples, have the same right to freedom and self-determination that everyone else does. They may choose to support a more authoritarian, less free regime than western democracies prefer; if they do, that's their choice. But if they choose to stop tolerating that, and demand a free and democratic government, they have that right, too.

BTW, you can't cite that ridiculous video by that ridiculous conspiracy theorist as "evidence" for your position, and convincingly claim you care about verification. Especially as that's NOT what you started out asking for: what you demanded was that a particular procedure be followed, with Gaddafi personally convicted of criminal charges in the World Court before western powers could be permitted to lift a finger to prevent him slaughtering his fellow Libyans by the thousands.

Best,

Lis

от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 2 апреля 2011 г. 13:55
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I do not see neither policy (a form of wisdom) nor diplomacy (relations between nations by peaceful means) in this case of Lybia.

Is this policy or diplomacy? :

MI6 puts gun to generals' heads: Our spies phone Gaddafi's men direct to warn: Defect or die

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368264/Libya-MI6-puts-gun-Gaddafis-generals-heads-warn-defect-die.html#ixzz1IM9scTuI


Colt as a last argument?

Luckily, there are clever people in the West and with a good sense of humor :)

"Britain just sold its last aircraft carrier and judging from other issues they are circling the financial drain. I don't think our "Dear Leader" or his war women will bomb London. I mean just because he wasn't invited to the wedding. I guess the queen decided after he returned the statue of Sir Winston Churchill he attendance was not required. "

http://www.linkedin.com/answers/law-legal/criminal-law/LAW_CLW/812667-3630823?browseIdx=0&sik=1301736595894&goback=.amq

Or this examlpe:

http://knowledgeperson.blogspot.com/2008/10/sign-of-predicted-mismanagement-war-of.html

John H. Brown FINDING OUR VOICES Bonus Feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOleG2F6U64

Or this:

"I've been having fun skewering the American "liberals" who were opposed to Bush's policies, now that Obama is even more Bush than Bush was. :-) "

I think you are in the past with your democracy. Even democrats start speaking about meritocracy:

... meritocracy is not a bad concept.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIK8cS2BDwk


Nikolay

от Lis
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дата 2 апреля 2011 г. 21:20
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Ah, Nikolay.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Or your own definitions. Whether or not to go to war is absolutely a question of policy.

The Daily Mail article about MI6--did you read anything at all except the headline? I suspect not. Alternatively, maybe you entertained the silly belief that I wouldn't click the link and read beyond the headline. Did you see the bit about Gaddafi having bodies moved so that it would look like they were killed in air strikes rather than by government forces?

Your LinkedIn link & quote: you are quoting a random LinkedIn member whose recites standard wingnut talking points not tethered in reality: "Dear Leader" is a term wingnuts use to describe Obama, pretending that Democrats regard him as a Messiah of some sort. In reality, of course, liberals find Obama frustratingly centrist. "War women"--the pretense, or perhaps belief, that there's something wrong with the fact that our Secretary of State and two other major foreign policy advisors are female, that this somehow makes Obama "less manly." The Winston Churchill bust: It was a temporary loan from the British government to President GWBush, not a gift to the US government. Obama has on his desk a wooden penholder, a gift from Gordon Brown, made from wood taken from the HMS Gannet, the sister ship to the Resolute, a British naval vessel whose wood was used to make the presidential desk. The spot previously occupied by the Churchill bust during Bush's administration, is now occupied by a bust of Abraham Lincoln. You may have heard of Lincoln; he's a former US president, highly regarded, and he's from Illinois, the state where Obama married and raised his family, and represented in the US Senate.

Your Knowledgeperson blog--I'm sorry, what do you think Condoleeza Rice or a briefing by an undersecretary of state under her in the GWBush administration has to do with policy under the Obama administration? You may want to know that the link to the original text is now dead--probably because as the briefing no longer represents current policy, it has been removed or moved to another location--and I am not investing forty minutes of my life in listening to the blatherings of a GWBush admin official without some substantive explanation of what your point is in wanting me to listen to it.

Anyone who compares GWBush and his "d*&^% world opinion, we make our own reality" unilateralist approach to foreign policy and Obama's commitment to cooperation, international cooperation, and multilateralism and concludes that Obama is "even more Bush than Bush was" has truly drunk the Kool-Aid and come untethered from reality. Granted that many liberals are very unhappy that he hasn't broken further from Bush policy; Bush's supporters are outraged by the many changes and departures he has made.

Dan Malloy, "meritocracy is not a bad concept." Who said it was? Do you think it's a bad concept? What's your objection to it?

Application matters, of course; the devil is always in the details.

It might help immensely if you would A)Read the things you link to, B)Assume I will read them, C)make coherent statements about your links rather than just assume that everyone will react exactly as you do to cherry-picked quotes.

Best,

Lis

от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 2 апреля 2011 г. 22:16
тема Re: Questions about Libya. Who knows the answers?
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Ha-ha, now you see how different the world is. And what is common denominator, Lis?

Nikolay

от Lis
кому Nikolay Kryachkov
дата 2 апреля 2011 г. 23:35
тема Re: Questions about Libya. Who knows the answers?
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Apparently you think you've made a point. Or, more likely, you know you haven't.

Lis

от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 2 апреля 2011 г. 23:45
тема Re: Questions about Libya. Who knows the answers?
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Make your point.

Nikolay

от Lis
кому Nikolay Kryachkov
дата 3 апреля 2011 г. 0:10
тема Re: Questions about Libya. Who knows the answers?
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I did, and your response was to "declare victory" with no substantive response at all. We may have carried this discussion as far as possible.

Lis


от Nikolay Kryachkov
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дата 3 апреля 2011 г. 1:16
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If I asked my original questions (I really did) why do you say about my response? I don't know the answers. What a victory? But your talant to substitute the original issue is outstanding. Bravo Lis! I take my hat off :)

But you did not mention debt system behind operation in Libya - the fact that the rebels formed not the government but the oil company and the central bank first of all.

Why not be honest and say - the West wants this and this in Libya because it is interested in it? Simple and clear and no reason to ask my original questions.

Nikolay

от Lis
кому Nikolay Kryachkov
дата 3 апреля 2011 г. 2:17
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Nikolay,

You want to frame the situation in Libya in a particular way, and don't want to accept or deal with the fact that other people are approaching it from a completely different frame, and aren't just reaching different answers, but are asking different questions.

You accept the legitimacy of brutal dictatorships that got their power via military coup. Fine, that's your choice--but quite a few people disagree with you. You believe that military action against Gaddafi can't be justified unless he personally is tried and convicted in the World Court _first_. Other people look at him bombing his own people, and sending troops against them, when he doesn't even have a legitimate claim to power at all, and say, this has to be stopped. You're absolutely entitled to believe that we're wrong; you're not entitled to insist that we really see the world your way and are consciously Doing Evil according to that worldview.

There's also your simplistic black/white frame that says if there are economic interests involved, that must be the whole explanation of western actions and anything else is just a smokescreen. In reality, it would have been far simpler for western economic interests if the Tunisians and Egyptians and Libyans and Yemenis and Syrians and everyone else in the mideast had just gone on meekly accepting their authoritarian rulers. Having them suddenly rise up and demand democracy complicates things, and puts our economic interests at risk. It means we have to decide--as a practical matter, separately for each country--what we're going to do about it. Tunisia managed to get its transition done without any outside involvement. Egypt--Mubarak was a very good ally. There was a significant faction in the US political establishment that felt we should support Mubarak and not the protesters. They didn't win out, in part because the senior Egyptian military were prepared to support a peaceful transition. Mubarak killed hundreds, and was willing to kill thousands, but the protesters hung tough, stayed peaceful, and helped make it possible for the military to decide to support them. And with a peaceful path forward, and another American political faction, including major players in the Obama administration, supporting the protesters and democracy, that's what happened.

Gaddafi is a whole different kettle of fish. He HAS killed thousands attempting to stop the resistance. He is also, despite some pragmatic cooperation over the last decade, a real enemy of the US. He has actively sponsored terrorism against US targets in Europe, and carried out the Lockerbie bombing. Unlike Mubarak, he's been actively undermining the central institutions of Libya for the past forty years, making it much harder for whatever comes after him to have a peaceful transition.

With Egypt, there was a conflict; we're in favor of democracy, but Mubarak had been a good ally. With Libya, there's no conflict: we support democracy, Gaddafi's an enemy, and the only concern is whether different enemies will form the new government after Gaddafi's gone. That's LESS likely to happen if we're seen as allies of the rebellion.

In short, you'd have to be dwelling in Cloud Cuckoo Land to think we wouldn't be giving some support to a serious uprising against Gaddafi.

Other Arab countries: As a practical matter, we can't get actively involved in every single one. You can only juggle so many balls at one time. And in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, so far, they've killed, um, dozens. They have snipers out, but not troops and bombers. Jordan has actually sacked the government and made some changes. In these cases, applying diplomatic pressure is one thing, and committing yet more military resources is another.

Economic interests, international political interests, ideological and cultural interests all play a role, don't all pull in the same direction, and will mix differently with different effects in each instance. That's not consistent with a hard ideological view of the world, but it's reality.

Best,

Lis


от Nikolay Kryachkov
кому Lis
дата 3 апреля 2011 г. 9:40
тема Re: Questions about Libya. Who knows the answers?
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Lis,

I do not think that frame exists or the frame is broader. Since power makers have no problems with liquidity (they do not interest in money itself) the only reason to do all this to save power on a form of changes. As known, to sustain you should move. Therefore I think the next president of the US will be republican, perhaps the Knowledge Person (my concept) or someone from this circles.

McCain: Palin Most Knowledge Person in America on Energy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fRjtAK66as

If so, for symmetry, the kinds of conservators will be in Europe and in Russia (like it was "Bush - Putin") who criticise liberal capitalism etc., like Mr N. Starikov does (a man without biography who suddenly became a writer in 2006). The problem of Gaddafi is that he is neither democrat, nor conservator, he is perpendicular and has own brain. He really can spoil planned direction of changes, but we'll live and see.

Arabs decide nothing in this plot.

Ah, just to mention - legitimacy is not the point, really. It is a kind of language key to open the door of behind the scene, if I am correct. But you know better :)


Nikolay

от Lis
кому Nikolay Kryachkov
дата 3 апреля 2011 г. 11:19
тема Re: Questions about Libya. Who knows the answers?
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Nikolay,

Clearly you are far too brilliant for me, and I can have nothing to offer in this discussion.

Best,

Lis


от Nikolay Kryachkov
кому Lis
дата 3 апреля 2011 г. 12:52
тема Re: Questions about Libya. Who knows the answers?
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It was my pleasure to have this wonderful discussion with you, Lis.

Nikolay

from St Petersburg which is connected with Egyptian symbolism all his history

http://fotki.yandex.ru/search/%D1%81%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BA%D1%81%20%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B3/users/bakulind/view/279003?page=0&how=week&type=image

http://fotki.yandex.ru/search/%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0/users/rainysnow/view/126856?page=1&how=week&type=image "